Attack of the illegal dollar vans

The Brooklyn Van Association, a new organization representing van owners, is campaigning against the illegal dollar vans on Flatbush and Utica Avenues. Sulaiman Haqq, who heads the group and owns Brooklyn Van Lines, spoke at a Community Board 17 meeting of the need for greater police enforcement.

Haaq told Courier Life that police enforcement of unlicensed vans diminished in 2002, when most of the vans were still legal. At this point, he said, “About 95 percent of the vans that operate along Flatbush and Utica Avenues are illegally operated."

For residents, he said, a major issue revolves around safety. Many of the illegal operators, Haqq contended, don’t have adequate insurance; some, he added, don’t even have driver’s licenses. While they may be able to offer lower fares, Haqq added, it is because they spend a great deal less to operate.

Haaq also suggests that the illegal vans drive and park more recklessly than the legal ones.... which may or not be true. We often take the dollar vans to and from Grand Army Plaza or Atlantic Center, and some drivers are certainly borderline insane. (I remember riding with one guy once who would stop every block or so and shout at women on the street.)

But the trouble is that it's hard to know which vans are legal and which aren't. If what Haaq says about the low percentage of legal vans is true, the wait for one is bound to be more than a few minutes, which (to my mind) would defeat the purpose of using them. Perhaps if more illegal vans were off the streets, the legal lines could afford to add more to their fleets. The money riders spend on unlicensed vans is, after all, getting diverted from public bus service as well as the legal vans. 

Legal Van Owners Want Unlicensed Vans Off the Street [Courier Life]

(Photo: Uberzombie)

Comments

[Pete]

I hate the vans.

That being said, if the vans weren't getting business, they wouldn't be here. Clearly people in the various Brooklyn communities use the vans, which are cheaper than the MTA's buses or subway. This is a significant factor for those with low income.

Add the fact that finding a local 41 bus is often an exercise in frustration (why are there express 41 buses at 11 pm on a Saturday?!!?) it doesn't appear the vans will be going anywhere.

[Charles Star]

I'm not sure cost is an important factor here. The vans cost $2; the buses cost $2.25, but if you buy in bulk the cost is $2.03. And transfers from the subway to the bus are free.

I think people take the vans more for convenience. You can pay cash for the vans and don't need exact change, they come more frequently, and you can get off at any time.

[Pete]

Most individuals in the lower income bracket cannot afford $89 for an unlimited Metro card. There is also an aversion to such purchases - people in the lower income bracket prefer to pay on a per use basis.

This is similar to the popularity of pay-as-you-go cellphones in such income groups.

While such choices often end up costing more in the long run, there is a perception of savings and control of income. In addition for those working paycheck to paycheck, it is difficult to make large purchases or predict finances.

[Charles Star]

I'm not talking about the monthly cards, Pete. If you buy a Metrocard for $8 or more, you get a 15% bonus. That's how you get the fare down to almost $2 a trip. It is 10 rides for the price of 9, with .50 left over when you refill the card.

I definitely understand your argument regarding the psychology of pay-as-you-go but I think you are overstating the case as it applies to the bus. In my experience if the bus happens to come first, very few people wait for the van.

[Pete]

I'm not sure I understand your argument.

You state that people like the convenience of paying cash, but then say people will interchangeably take the bus or van. So you are suggesting that people carry MetroCards and cash and hop on the first available vehicle? (It sounds like you do, but I don't think this is the case for most).

Really, my experience is that for whatever reason, there is large a group of people who clearly prefer the vans. It is a combination of reasons: cultural, economic and convenience.

Some of the vans are $1.50, BTW.

[Charles Star]

What I am saying is that there are a lot of reasons that the dollar vans thrive but that your previously stated reason - the lower price of the vans - is probably the least important of them. Yes, I am suggesting that most commuters carry both MetroCards and cash; I can't be the only one.

As for the actual price of the vans, if some are $1.50, I'm owed change. I haven't been on a van that didn't charge $2 since the spike in gas prices.

[Pete]

Sorry I was trying to find a middle ground with you but you prefer a very rigid viewpoint, Charles.

In general, people ride the vans for economic reasons. The majority of riders are low income and they do not prefer to buy MetroCards, whether they be weekly or monthly. Whether it be 25 cents or 75 cents difference, they prefer paying in cash (as you agree) and do not like to layout money on cards.

This is backed up by the city's own research and no and I'm not going to look it up for you. You're very convinced about your opinion and it's not going to change anyway.

I hope everyone has enjoyed the prolixity of myself and Charles on this topic.

[Matt]

I like the vans because I get to listen to the latest club music, and there's something thrilling about driving 75 mph on the stretch of Flatbush between the park and the garden. So it's not merely an economic consideration, it makes me feel like New York still has an edge to it.

[diak]

Hey, Matt... if you want thrills and edginess, go to Coney Island. Ride the Cyclone and gawk at the freaks. I think most of us in PLG don't like having to risk our lives sharing the streets with these maniacs. I wouldn't ride in one of those vans even if they charged a quarter...

[Dollar Van Demos]

Haaq estimate is completely off. There are illegal vans on Flatbush but that number is nowhere close to 95%. I believe he's employing a scare tactic to bolster his organization. The large majority of dollar vans are legal, insured, and providing a much-needed service for the neighborhoods cut off from mass transit. Plus we make 'reality music videos' inside them and it's fun entertainment for the passengers and a proving ground for up-and-coming local artists. Get in the van and do your thing!

[babs]

Do love Dollar Van Demos --follow them on Facebook & Twitter.

It seems to me that it's easy to tell the legal ones from the not -- the legal ones have TLC license plates and most have their TLC license numbers posted on the side of the van.

But another good point here is the social aspect of the dollar van -- there are interactions going on here that you don't often find on a bus. Added to the fact that you'll always get a seat -- or the van won't stop!

[brn442]

Economics aside, what about the perception that dollar vans get their passengers to their destinations faster, may not be a big deal to PLG'ers going from Empire to Church but for Flatbushers going from Grand Army Plaza to Brooklyn College or Kings Plaza - it is.

That's why the lukewarm response to a rapid bus transit was rather disappointing.

[gw]

How can you tell which vans are legal and which are not? And how do you know how much to pay? I think I've taken the dollar vans twice but I always feel a little uneasy about it.

[Charles Star]

I don't bother trying to tell the difference, gw. Give the driver two bucks; if you get fifty cents back, you're on one of the vans that charge $1.50.

[Jack]

You're all missing the point on this. They are massive amounts of dollar vans that are illegal. Period. Van companies pay good money to train driver's and have proper insurance. Why should they suffer when they are doing the right thing? Besides all that, I live on Beekman and Flatbush Avenue, a bottleneck for traffic racing off of multiple lane flatbush in other areas. They scream up the street blaring their air horns every three seconds distubing the peace. I know that might actually be an oxymoron for Beekman Place but I believe it contributes to a general disposition of stress in the area. Once again another "oversight" by police and the taxi and limousine commission.

[Macaca]

I like the van whose horn honks the Godfather theme. A PLG fixture for the 10 yrs I've lived here.